I am a firm believer in the personhood of children and that children are an oppressed group. It pains me to see so much child hate within feminism; not from all feminists of course, but there certainly is a lot of mother-blaming and child hate in some pockets of feminism. Many others have spoken eloquently and thoughtfully about this before me, so I’m not going to reiterate what they’ve said. Long story short, I believe that children’s rights are important, and that feminists in being progressive and advocating for marginalised groups of all kinds, should be invested in working for the rights of all oppressed groups – including children.
Reading a post by Elena Perez at California NOW made me think about privilege checklists (like the Male Privilege Checklist and the White Privilege Checklist, for example) and I came to the realisation that, as yet, nobody had written an adult privilege checklist. So with some help from my good friend Jenny, using some of Elena Perez’s ideas from the aforementioned post, I set about writing the Adult Privilege Checklist.
This one is a bit different from previous privilege checklists in that instead of being written from the perspective of the privileged class (the male person, the white person) it is written in the voice of the oppressed class (the child). We came to this decision because written from the adult’s perspective, intersectionality became a problem. Things like “Light switches, windows, sinks and toilets are positioned for me to be able to reach easily” are null and void when thinking about, say, an adult wheelchair user. So we changed it to “Light switches, windows, sinks and toilets are not usually positioned for someone my size to be able to reach easily.” It is our hope that, written from the child’s perspective, the list shows the ways in which children are disadvantaged compared to the majority of adults, as written from the perspective of the adult, some of these would not apply.
It is something of a work in progress, and I’m really hoping that people will chip in with their own ideas, and that this will spark more conversation about children’s oppression and respect for the personhood of children.
So without further ado:
The Adult Privilege Checklist
As a child:
- I am not legally allowed to vote, even though government makes decisions about me and people like me.
- If I need a caregiver, he or she will not be my peer.
- It is often considered acceptable, appropriate and even desirable for my caregiver to physically assault me if I do not please them.
- In many places I can legally be physically disciplined in my place of education.
- If I am hit, even once, by a loved one, that is not normally legally considered abuse.
- It is likely that I am smaller than the person assaulting me, and that I will be unable to defend myself.
- If I am behaving in a way others do not like (or my caregiver has decided they no longer wish to be in a certain place), it is considered acceptable to physically pick me up and forcibly remove me from the area/situation.
- If I am routinely yelled at, criticized, and belittled in my own home, this might not generally be recognised as abusive behaviour.
- My physical and emotional needs are often not treated as reasonable and important.
- If I am angry or upset, this is often not taken seriously and I am often condescended and patronised.
- I am almost always dependent on others for my economic support.
- I do not get to make choices about family finances, when to spend money and on what.
- If I am allowed to earn money at all, it will be at a lower rate than adults doing exactly the same work.
- I am routinely ignored or told to be quiet.
- If I am the only child in a group of people, I will often be shut out of the conversation or patronised.
- It is considered acceptable to talk over me or to interrupt me while I am speaking.
- When I display age-appropriate behaviour, other people find it unacceptable.
- I cannot be ‘noisier/more active than average’ in a public place without people questioning my right to be in that place.
- If I am ‘noisier/more active than average’ in a public place I risk myself and my caregiver being thrown out.
- I cannot speak in public to a group of people without putting people my age on trial.
- I do not have free choice with my language. If I use ‘unacceptable’ words I will often be punished.
- If I am suffering from mental health problems, I am often dismissed and have them put down to my age.
- Adults often feel they have the right to harass me.
- Adults feel it is their right to talk to me even after I make it clear I do not wish to talk to them.
- Adults feel it is their right to touch me (tousle my hair, pinch my cheek) without my permission.
- Society and the media often portray people like me in a negative light.
- The media often describes people like me as lazy, ignorant or criminal.
- People often make decisions on my behalf and tell me that they know better than I do what is best for me.
- The world is not generally sized to fit me:
- I am not usually able to find a seat which is made for somebody my size.
- Light switches, windows, sinks and toilets are not usually positioned for someone my size to be able to reach easily.
- I cannot be certain that I will be able to lock the door to my bathroom stall or reach the toilet paper once I’m sitting down.
- It is very possible that I might find myself trapped somewhere that I cannot leave without assistance.
- Silverware, plates, and glasses will usually not be sized to fit my hands.
- When eating out, or at a film, the wait time will probably not feel reasonable to me, and if I eat as I would at home I might attract stares and rude comments.
- If my wait time for food or entertainment feels unreasonable, and I complain, people will generally not be understanding and apologetic.
- I can’t talk with my mouth full without people putting this down to my age.
- I might not understand the unspoken rules of interacting in public spaces, they might not feel natural to me, and might not be able to follow them without causing myself distress.
- I may not be able to speak my native language with fluency and am often not understood by other native speakers.
- It is considered acceptable for another speaker of my native language to laugh at me for my language choices, or inability to express myself.
- I am not usually given a choice about my place of education (or whether to participate in education). If I am sent to school I am legally expected to attend, whether it is my choice or not. If I am home educated I might not be given the choice to go to school if I so wish.
- If I am late to my place of education I will probably be reprimanded, even if this is the fault of my adult caregiver.
- I am almost never permitted to choose my educational curriculum, materials, or pace.
- My educational evaluations will often be based on circumstances entirely outside my control–the actions of other students, or of my caregivers, or the learning materials available to me.
- If I am feeling ill, I might not be able to adequately express this to my caregiver. If I can, I might not be taken seriously or treated properly.
- If I need to see a health professional, I am reliant upon my caregiver to arrange this for me.
- Medical professionals often ignore me entirely, choosing instead to speak to my caregiver only about my needs.
- I am not able to make my own medical decisions. The right to make these decisions belongs to other people entirely (usually my adult caregivers).
- In some places, if I require an abortion, my adult caregivers must be notified, which can sometimes place me in great danger.
- I might not be able to attend to my bodily needs (housing, food, water, toileting, health needs, taking myself to bed) without relying on someone else to assist me.
- I am often forced to eat foods I do not like.
- People might advocate force-feeding me, and this is not often seen as abusive.
- My bedtime is set (often arbitrarily) by my caregiver, and I often do not have input on this.
- I have no choice about my living space – the house I live in, its decoration, the arrangement of furniture etc.
- I often have no choice about my outward appearance – haircuts, clothing etc.
- I am usually not given a choice about which religion to follow.
- If I wish to spend time with other people, I need the permission and sometimes the assistance of my caregiver to arrange this.
- If I do not wish to spend time with a certain person or people, I am not usually given the choice to avoid them.
- My sexual development is often not explained to me and sometimes actively discouraged.
- If my sexuality/gender identity is not cis and straight, I can expect to be told it’s “wrong,” and efforts will be made to change it. Use of force is considered acceptable in this situation.
- It is considered unacceptable for me to enjoy my sexuality.
- My belongings can be taken from me (often by my adult caregiver) and this is not viewed as theft.
- If I am in public unescorted by an adult, random adults may demand to escort me, and restrict my movements; this is considered acceptable, regardless of my own opinions or those of my legal caregiver.
- I am limited in what films I may see alone, regardless of my opinions or those of my caregiver.
- It is considered acceptable or even “prudent” for me to be discriminated against and regarded with suspicion when patronising a store or other establishment.
- It is often considered acceptable to force me to submit my belongings to a search before/after/during my visit to a store or other establishment.
If you found this privilege checklist interesting, you might be interested in the following (and if you know of other privilege checklists that should be included here, do let me know!):
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I think this checklist is fantastically spot on, well done! Something on this line should be mailed to every parent, as most of it covers bad parenting imo.
I do however find it sad that child can be substituted for woman in many of the points and still be just as applicable.
I have a couple of niggles and hope to come back and have another read and comment again at a more sensible time!
Just quickly though, for number 2 – does a sibling not count as a peer? I say this as the eldest of six children and routinely cared for my siblings, and would have thought they counted as peers.
And for 20a – is there a way to make a child eat food they hate? I can’t even imagine one, except for the force feeding which you cover in another point which seems equally as odd.
And, it struck me that the condition of unconditional love could be threaded in somewhere, not sure where or how though, as it has always struck me that children however badly abused, still have this connection with their parents. Maybe I am wrong, I don’t know and it’s late.
Thanks for doing this list though as it is definately food for thought and I think I’ll share it with my boys and see what they have to say about it.
>>>Just quickly though, for number 2 – does a sibling not count as a peer? I say this as the eldest of six children and routinely cared for my siblings, and would have thought they counted as peers.<<<
In many cases, I would say no because the sibling has a conflict of interest if they are placed in charge of other siblings. They can rat on their sibs and the sibs *not in charge* may (or did in my case) often get no hearing. The power structure is still very wonky.
Also, since some sibs have different abilities and handicaps, they aren't what I can clearly call peer advocates. Instead, it is frequently the case that sib in charge are getting lots of experience in advance of their years in how to oppress the weak or less able or less affluent, etc.
~Katherine
I was made to eat food I hated quite often as a child. I was not literally force-fed, but I knew I would likely be yelled at or hit if I didn’t eat it.
I also was forced to eat food. I got it down to shoving food in my pocket when it seemed my parents weren’t looking. I did screw up one time and instead of flushing it down the toilet made the mistake of putting in the trash can. I ended up still having to eat that chicken leg. My parents still feel they did nothing wrong since ‘we had just put a new ‘clean’ trash bag in the trash can’
Wow! Great list. What struck me while reading it is that some of the items on it also exacerbate others. For example, not being able to reach a light switch and not being able to communicate that you want the light turned on, can result in you being told to be quiet.
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Much of this resonates. However, a few bits don’t, insofar as some parts seem a bit self-contradictory (14 c and d), or don’t take account of the need to protect children from some circumstances (such as locking themselves in somewhere when egress is needful), or don’t take account of the realities of the world, which include not allowing children to oppress other people by acting wholly and utterly selfishly at all times. Children are dependents to some degree, especially in infancy, and they aren’t the centre of everybody else’s world: they’re physically weaker than grownups, their synapses are in huge states of flux through their early 20s when they’re truly young adults; they have tremendous needs for high-quality calories, fats, and proteins when they’re in their infancy; and that’s just the way things are. It doesn’t justify ignoring them and abusing them and treating them like chattels, but it isn’t reasonable to expect every other human being to forego the pleasure of a rare evening in a nice restaurant because the exhausted child who wants to be in bed is being kept up late by its caregiver and is expressing her/himself loudly to this effect, in an age-appropriate manner
.
Vinaigrette Girl: This is not a “list of things we should definitely change”. It is a list of privileges adults have over children, whether they’re “for the good of the child” or not.
but it isn’t reasonable to expect every other human being to forego the pleasure of a rare evening in a nice restaurant because the exhausted child who wants to be in bed is being kept up late by its caregiver and is expressing her/himself loudly to this effect, in an age-appropriate manner
Got to totally disagree with you there. Children have as much right to be in that restaurant as adults do. See this post and comments for more on that.
@Anji:
I agree with you that the child has as much right to be there as adults do.
However, in the example Vinaigrette Girl gave that you quoted, the child doesn’t really want to be there! I think that parents have a responsibility to respect their child’s limits and needs too when deciding where to take them.
The way I read it was that Vinaigrette Girl was making the assumption that the child wanted to be in bed based on his or her behaviour – which could just as easily be simple excitement or grumpiness for an unrelated reason. I agree that the parents should ask the child what he or she wants, but not that we should project our own reasoning for the behaviour onto the child and decide what is best for that child from the outside.
I have to agree with Vinaigrette Girl on the restaurant comment. I have chldren who (mostly) go to bed at an appropriate time for their age. If I was able to have a night out then the last thing I would want to experience is a tired child expressing itself.
And tbh, asking a child if s/he wants to stay up late tonight, and by consequence become overtired and stressed isn’t what parenting is all about.
“decide what is best for that child from the outside.”
One of the hardest things to get right, but it is a very important part of parenting. It’s not done in a vacuum, but with a knowledge of your child – it’s likes/dislikes etc.
Or the parents’ ideologies, or the society’s ideologies, or merely what is most convenient for parents…
I’m not convinced that all, or even most, day-to-day parenting choices are made for the kids’ benefit.
You said you were interested in other privilege checklists:
http://aspergersquare8.blogspot.com/2009/08/checklist-of-neurotypical-privilege-new.html
Interesting article!
Thanks Cereus, I’m adding it now.
That’s *glorious,* and I find myself wanting to add to it.
18 b. I am almost never permitted to choose my educational curriculum, materials, or pace.
c. My educational evaluations will often be based on circumstances entirely outside my control–the actions of other students, or of my caregivers, or the learning materials available to me.
23 a. If my sexuality is not cis and straight, I can expect to be told it’s “wrong,” and efforts will be made to change it. Use of force is considered acceptable in this situation.
b. It is considered unacceptable for me to enjoy my sexuality.
24. If I am in public unescorted by an adult, random adults may demand to escort me, and restrict my movements; this is considered acceptable, regardless of my own opinions or those of my legal caregiver.
25. I am limited in what movies I may see alone, regardless of my opinions or those of my caregiver.
(The “religion” point is such a huge can of worms I’m trying not to think about it too closely.)
I really do not see the responsibilities that adults have to protect children being our “privilege” over them. I don’t see how anyone can even make that comparison.
The privilege checklists are designed to make us aware of the inherent societal problems that exist in being born a certain race/sex/etc. But we are ALL born children, and we ALL share the dependency of childhood for at least some years, and many of the things on this list could apply to a person of any age (for example, being looked down on for eating with your mouth open.) I do not find it “problematic” that children are not financially independent. How in the world could we ever expect to change most of these things? In what world could a child be expected to take care of themselves? THAT would be considered child abuse. Actually, the legal definition is “neglect.” I’ll give it to you on the light switches, etc, but I don’t want 6 yr olds voting. Do you? Really?
I get that there are some commenters in the crunchy crowd who think that children should never be given any direction, guidance, or discipline, but I am certainly not one of those people. I think it’s my responsibility to take care of my child’s financial needs, to vote with them in mind until they reach legal voting age. I do not agree that it is my responsibility as a feminist to tell my kids they don’t have to go to school if they don’t want, or they can be ignorant to other people if they want, or they should swear in public spaces if they want to. It’s my job to raise these kids up to be loving, confident, respectful people.
I don’t think it’s about pointing out areas for change so much as encouraging a little sympathy/patience. My 8month old son cries when I take something for him. I might decide this is “bad” behaviour and yell at him, act condescending, or even ignore him. But I understand that for him, he’s just as upset as I would be if someone just walked up to me and took my cellphone.
As far as he was concerned, that thing was his and I just took it. So I give him a hug while he cries, ans I explain to him that I understand that he feels frustration because I’ve taken something away that he wanted to play with, etc.
So to me, this list is more about teaching people to see what the world is like from a child’s perspective so that we can show them some compassion.
I don’t think she is saying any of this is right or wrong, it’s just showing what privilege adults have that kids don’t. I think she is just showing how hard it is to be a kid in the world and that we should understand how the world looks to them. There might not be anything we can do about most of it, but it we approach our kids with an understanding that the world is not designed for kids to act like kids a lot of the time, it might help us to parent better and with more empathy and compassion.
I couldn’t even finish reading this. I am in disagreement with a lot of what has been stated. I am my child’s caretaker and I will make sure that my child is taught to respect him/herself as well as those out in society. I think coddling a child and giving them the types of choices you are suggesting is too confusing and adult for a child. They do need to be dependent on us. Do I feel that because of this I think a child should be abused? No. And just because I discipline my child doesn’t mean he/she is abused. I find most feminism flips over the thin line between abuse and discipline whenever it suits their needs.
I do feel a child deserves respect, as my child is taught to respect me. While I can be a friend, first and foremost I am the parent and regardless of how my child feels if my answer is “because I say so” than my child will accept that answer as is because I am ultimately the parent who has sacrificed much being a parent to ensure they grow up to be outstanding and productive adults in our society. There is more, but I’m not about to make a counter list to yours. Kudos for going through all that work to make the list though.
If you really believe there is a “thin line” between abuse and discipline, then you have no idea what either word actually means.
“I do feel a child deserves respect, as my child is taught to respect me”
Are you joking? If we deserve respect it is because we have earnt it. Not because we teach/tell a child to respect their parent/s.
@TheFeministBreeder – young people experience some of the worst discrimination that one can in our society. A list which describes how that is played out is always welcome. I think it is my job to raise my children to become the sort of adults they wish to be, to give them opportunities that they can take up if they feel so inclined, and to forget if they aren’t interested. And I don’t give a shit if my children swear, every other fucker does. I do care however, that they understand what the actual words mean, and what people like you will think of them if they chose to “swear in public places”. Words are only words – it is us that gives positive or negative power to them.
@earwicga – you say “Words are only words – it is us that gives positive or negative power to them.”
So do you think it’s okay if your children calls somebody a “nigger”? I mean, after all, words are only words, right? What if your child decides to give that word a “different meaning?” – then it’s okay for them to use it? You don’t see that there are appropriate words for situations, some words are never appropriate, or are at least not appropriate for a child to use?
I, personally, do give a fuck if my 3 yr old swears at pre-school, which he once did, and nearly got kicked out for it. My child has to function in the rest of society, whether I like it or not. What kind of a mother will my child think I am if I care more about letting him do whatever he wants at 3 yrs old than keeping him in school? He’d probably think I’m a shit mother – just like I think of my mother who really didn’t give a crap about how I turned out. BTW, I haven’t spoken to that woman in almost all of my adult life.
I’ll give you that one! My children are white and I can not see that it would ever be appropriate for them to use the word ‘nigger’, so thanks for pointing that out. Also, at age 3 I wouldn’t have been happy if my children went round swearing. But my boys are now nearly 8 and it is a whole different kettle of fish. My mother used to wash out our mouths with soap if we swore, which did nothing to stop us using words we didn’t understand.
Tbh, my reply was a little overly strident. You don’t see the point of this checklist and feel it doesn’t exist within the role of responsible parent (correct me if I have interpreted you incorrectly). I see it is inherently part of my responsibility as a parent that I recognise where inequality exists in their life. I don’t think my children should have an automatic deference to adults as to me that is one of the fundamental positions which allows abuse.
No kidding! Just wait til your kid goes out into the real world and swears at his boss. We’ll see how many jobs he can hold! I agree with a lot on this list, but I think we need a bit of a reality check. If you want to treat and respect your child as you would an adult, you also need to prepare them for the realities of an adult world. ie: You can’t do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. Those kind of kids will grow up to be adults that can’t hold a job, can’t maintain a relationship, and think they are the center of the universe. Being a respectful parent is one thing….being totally permissive is asking for your child to not respect you at all, or himself, or others.
fwiw – I’m in full agreement (and also delighted to see you blogging again!).
Thanks, I’m glad to be blogging again too. I’m not writing nearly as much as I’d like to though, it seems like the inspiration fairy has dumped me.
AFAIK this hasn’t been mentioned:
(applies to teenagers mostly)
25. It is considered acceptable or even “prudent” for me to be discriminated against and regarded with suspicion when patronizing a store or other establishment
25a. It is often considered acceptable to force me to submit my belongings to a search before/after/during my visit to a store or other establishment
along with not being able to vote, children cannot open bank accounts or apply for many things that require filling out legal documents without a caregivers signature. If you can get a job before you are 18 you should be able to open a bank account.
Too right mana. Additionally the interest rates on children’s savings accounts are woeful in comparison to adult savings accounts. (I know all interest rates are low at the moment, but children’s accounts have always had a rubbish rate).
Very thought provoking list, thank you, noticed some of my own behaviours there!
Just wanted to say – I’m in Australia and my children’s bank accounts get better interest than mine! And they get charged no fees, ever. And if I chose, I could open them any of the adult accounts available anyway. We’re with a small credit union though, I have no idea what the actual banks are like here, I won’t have anything to do with any of them!
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wtf is this.
children should not be treated as adults. their brains are not fully developed, and they physically cannot make the kind of informed decisions you seem to think necessary. you get that? they are *physically incapable* of it. i don’t care how special your snowflake is; it’s the truth.
it’s really a no-brainer. that is why children are classified as minors.
i don’t understand why this is so difficult to comprehend.
Awesome list!
(Came here via the abominable Feministe thread)
Since disability is such a complex subject:
Sighted Privilege Checklist
The Normal Auditory Processing Privilege Checklist
And here’s another Thin Privilege Checklist
And here is Unpacking the knapsack of able privilege.
(Your link to the non-disabled privilege checklist doesn’t seem to work…)
I have to really disagree with this list. Children are not children forever. A child has a period allowed to learn how to function as an adult, and until then are sheltered by the parent. As I child I would never be able to hop out of my mom set as a totally comprehending and functional adult.
A parents role is to be the peer and gaurdian to allow the child to do this. The parent teaches the child to communicate their needs and eventually fulfill them.
A child doesn’t understand what child labour is. However we as adults do. We understand how a child can be taken advantage of and set laws to protect them. A child has to develop the ability to handle the responsibility of a bank account. How about children and sex? If we want to view them as their own persons we should allow them to experiment as soon and freely as they want. But we don’t. We know that children are vulnerable to predators and set laws to protect them. If you want it your way a child should be able to smoke, vote, have sex, and drink from birth. Which is ludicrous. We set laws to protect them.
We also work harder to protect them. A child will recieve priority attention over an adult because we recognize their vulnerability developmentally. However if that child is a minority child or white child may cause a prejudicial difference in that aid. A baby will recieve priority over a handicap person. We have pyschologists and scientists dedicated to the health of children
And this is also why we hold parents to a higher standard, because making decisions to help that child are a big responsibility. A parent tries to determine the best schools, teach good behavioral habits, ect. And everyone is going to have a different way to do that. The only way to give children the world you want is to release them all into the woods to be raised by sheer luck as wild children.
Mistakes are made, not every parent is perfect, and children can and are abused. But to call them on the same level as minorities, the disabled, and other persecuted groups is a slap in the face. Children grow older and become adults that then care for the next generation. Blacks can grow white, lost limbs/nerves don’t magically regenerate, and they will still be persecuted.
Comment edited for personal insult and ableist language, alongside disregard for children’s rights. It’s like Comment Policy breaking bingo, right here.
Lovely to meet you, Sharky. I can assure you that you won’t be commenting here again.
Most of these apply to adults as well. How many adults have free choice of language at work? How many women do not earn as much as men? How many disabled people find buildings aren’t set up for them? How many people routinely find that they are harassed, annoyed, touched, etc. by other adults and nothing is done about it? How many minorities are discriminated against and painted in a negative light? How many people have their mental illness dismissed, ignored, or ridiculed?
Nice try, but what you just described is the HUMAN condition, not problems exclusive to childhood.
You could equally say that because black people have trouble gaining employment, women’s trouble gaining employment is null and void and not an oppression. Just because the ways in which one group is oppressed intersect with the ways in which another group is oppressed does not make the oppression any less real.
Anji,
Thank you so much for putting this together. It is spot-on. Those who would argue about it are merely, deep-down, fearful – too fearful to even consider the points from a child’s perspective. This is how dehumanized children have become to some people. I fear as long as you write these brave truths you’ll hear a lot of argument, because out culture is BUILT in part on oppressing children.
As Twisty Faster says at I Blame The Patriarchy:
“Kids” are a class of people around the discrimination, domination, indoctrination, and abuse of whom entire cultures, industries, pathologies, and oppressive social systems flourish. Youth is temporary for the individual, yes, but a youth class persists; there is a constant supply of replacement children to keep this class well-stocked with hapless victims. Furthermore, the damage inflicted by expertly administered adult oppression techniques hardly vanishes the moment a kid turns 18.
I am proud to say my partner and I are working at dismantling many of the unfair oppressions our children (and other children) are subjected to. We are still our kids’ caretakers and still take very seriously their upbringing and “socialization” (as everyone likes to call it) and physical, emotional, and mental safety. Our family has benefitted so much from reading authors who believe that kids are people deserving of respect. I just wish there were more of these authors!
So, thank you.
Thank you.
Kelly, Check out Our Muddy Boots! Jen talks about this stuff all the time!
Well, I personally am grateful to my own parents for looking out for me until I was old enough to look out for myself. Neuroscience has shown that the frontal lobe (responsible for good decision-making) does not fully mature until around age 20. Until that kicks in, therefore, I will be using the “adult privilege” to protect my kids from themselves.
Agreed!!! I needed my parents and/or caregivers to survive. While my father was abusive, my mom left him and I was in a safer environment when I was 8. Thankfully my mom did that and I was able to grow with my mom and step-dad. Although they had things they could have done differently, I still had to rely on them.
There’s more than enough people in society who feel that children belong everywhere and anywhere, and should be able to make as much noise as they want, and run around where ever they please, knocking things over as they go.
I’m tired of the tyranny of parents towards non parents, now we’re having to hear about the rights children don’t have. Children have plenty of rights, considered back when parents just knew to not bring their screaming child to a restaurant.
If anything adults without children have their rights diminished, by parents. Tell a parent to please see their child behaves, “My child ALWAYS behaves!” will be the answer you receive. Ask them to please try to quiet down their child, you’ll get a tirade about how you don’t know how hard it is being a parent, or you weren’t around all the other times they quieted their child as if accounting for all the other previous “gold star” moments they had with their child makes up for the reality their child is now screaming.
Or that adults without children can rarely find refuge from parents and their kids, without either choosing to stay at home. Or going to a place like a bar, where adults are put at risk by people who may get drunk and violent.
So please, tell me again how children suffer in an environment where they get to choose where to eat, where mommy and daddy can decide McDonald’s isn’t good enough for their baby, and they have the right to bring them to a restaurant and let them bother other customers.
Explain to me, how allowing children to yell and carry on, is not a child privelage. Adults can’t yell without being seen as a disturbance. So aren’t then children privelaged in the sense that they can carry on. Would you suggest adults without children show their disagreement with the child’s privelage at being able to make noise, by making noise in return?
Perhaps it’s unfair the ENTIRE WORLD isn’t revolving around teaching little children, about medical information, and approaching them like they’re little adults. I’m sure you think it would be better, a child is frightened by hearing medical information that may be too complex for them to understand at their age, then them simply getting a lollipop because children aren’t privelaged to know about their medical history. I’m sure you’d find a child crying over having a cold that could possibly turn into pnumonia, a sign that things are going right in this world.
Jackie – the correct spelling is ‘privilege’. You really should know this considering it is something you have in abundance.
Earlier, you spelled “earned” as “earnt”. It’s the internet. Get over spelling.
Jackie,
Perhaps you’d like to be reminded that you were once a child and had the same moments which you describe with such loathing. How did your mother deal with it? I’m willing to bet that there were times when your mother was just as frazzled and tired as the parents sitting at the table across from you in the restaurant. And inside they’re thinking: “Please don’t make a scene. Please just sit down and eat your green beans.” (or something similar).
Don’t for a moment think that just because my child has a moment where s/he behaves in a manner that you find inappropriate (and which is completely age-appropriate) that I am oblivious to your discomfort at seeing this behavior. You, however, are completely oblivious to the fact that I am painfully aware of your desire to say something nasty or worse, create an even bigger scene by confronting me AND my child.
That makes ME uncomfortable. So I should have to be constantly on edge, unable to enjoy my meal because I’m waiting for the potential problem that may arise from my child not liking her meal (she has that right, as do you), or being excited about being out in a place he’s never been before and spilling his drink, or being cranky because she’s hungry and the kitchen is taking a long time to get the food out (also your right) and the waitperson didn’t ask them to rush her order so she could start eating sooner?
What about the rude restaurant patron across the room who is complaining loudly that his steak is undercooked? Does he have the right to be in the restaurant or not? If he does, then so does my child. If my kids’ behavior bothers you, then so should his, particularly since he’s an adult and should know better, right?
And while I’m thinking about it, what about the issue of moms being able to nurse their babies in restaurants? Are you, like the infamous Kim Kardashian, ‘grossed out’ by women who go to restaurants with their kids and nurse them at the table? They have as much a right to eat as anyone else. If this doesn’t bother you then children being children in a restaurant shouldn’t bother you.
As for taking them to McDonald’s – if I’m going to eat out, I don’t want to eat at McDonald’s. Do you honestly want a salad from McDonald’s over a salad at someplace nicer? I have a right to eat somewhere that has healthier fare and as a parent I have the obligation to feed my children healthy food. You, as someone without children, do not have the right to deny me that.
Finally, if you don’t know the situation you really can’t judge it. What if there’s nothing a parent can do about a child’s behavior? Some kids have medical conditions which cause the behaviors you speak of and which cannot be controlled by medication or other means. ADHD. Tourette syndrome. Autism. The list goes on. If you’re healthy, I’m really glad for you. However for a parent whose child has a condition that makes him have verbal explosions (as with Tourette syndrome and sometimes Asperger’s) it is completely ridiculous to expect that they would keep him at home and never go out for a meal, simply because it might disturb other diners. That would be discriminating because Tourette syndrome is recognized as a disability.
Given this one example (and I can think of many others) your reasoning really falls apart. You don’t want to hear it, that much is clear from your first paragraph. But I’m here to tell you that there is always much more to the situation than is evident at your cursory glance.
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While I agree with much of the list, I have to say that #5a is a bit over the top in its wording and needs an age qualifier. Yep, my kids are dependent on me and my husband financially. But that’s because they are 1, 3, and 9. I don’t know that this will be the same when they are older.
My first job was when I was 12 (babysitting) and my first real job which required me to pay income tax was delivering newspapers when I was 13 or so. My money was my own to do with what I chose. My parents felt it was their job to provide clothing for us but we each got $100 (or something close to it) and were allowed to spend it as we wanted on clothing. When I was 17 and worked in a department store, I wanted colored contact lenses. I already wore contacts. My parents paid for the cost of regular lenses and I had to make up the amount that was extra to get the colored ones. I will probably have a similar practice with my own children when they are old enough to work, because I think it’s important to learn how to use money (wisely or otherwise).
As far as decisions about finances, my kids are not really up to understanding why things have to be paid. Even my oldest doesn’t really understand why we don’t have the money to do certain things. I think this is partly because children see adults using ATMs and, as they often interpret things literally, they think that all you have to do is stick a card in a machine and it will give you money. They don’t see the link between having enough money in your account and the money coming out of the machine. Clearly that’s something I need to work on in my family but I think it’s something that is widespread.
Anyway, I think #5 (both parts) requires a qualifier that children who ARE capable of comprehending financial decisions of a family aren’t consulted and that they should be allowed to earn money at an appropriate age if they have the desire. Obviously I don’t think you’re advocating child labor, though perhaps some people have misinterpreted this. I also don’t think that you expect a 2 year-old to understand how a mortgage works and realize that there isn’t money to put a swimming pool in the garden.
Also, I’m confused about #8. Exactly what does this mean? “In public” is a really broad term. Do you mean speaking to a group in a formal setting (giving a speech, for example) or do you mean speaking to anyone outside of one’s family in a location other than one’s home?
I interpreted this as speaking to anyone other than family and I feel that saying that it puts everyone in the speaker’s age group on trial is really over the top and implies that everyone everywhere views everything that children say in a negative light. Imho that’s really over the top and presumptuous. I don’t know any adults that hear what a child says and use it as an indicator of how all children that age speak or how all children that age think. Most people I know deal with the here and now, and what they hear from kids regarding the present situation, not how it applies to all children unless that is the speaker’s specific goal.
Thanks for championing for the rights of children. I like your thoughts on politics, too. I’ve subscribed and will be reading more.
I tweeted and linked to this post on my unschooling blog.
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I love this list. Thanks for writing it and taking the time to answer so many snarky comments.
Parents who think they have no choice but to overly restrict their children’s lives make me sad. I know that it is typically done out of love and out of never knowing any different model, but it’s such a shame that they have this attitude.
Are some protections and differences necessary? Yes, in most cases. Are all of these? No, most of them are random and ageist.
I would also add sports and hobbies to this list, BTW. I know so many children who are teased and miserable in sports like Little League but their parents will not let them quit, for instance, or who are forced to learn instruments they don’t like or take up hobbies they have no interest in, with no ability at all to take classes for those they wish.
Some of my favorite children in the universe are unschooled children who have been reared with very few limitations and basic empowerment over most of their own lives. I have simply met too many of them who are MORE delightful to be around than usual (even as teenagers!) to shrug it off as coincidence. Some of them have not been, but that can be said of many children who were raised with rigidity and force too.
Thanks for challenging me to question some of my parenting assumptions.
“Some of my favorite children in the universe are unschooled children who have been reared with very few limitations and basic empowerment over most of their own lives”.
Did many of your favorite adults grow up this way? What might seem charming or cute in children may lose some of its appeal in adulthood. Children get some slack on things that adults don’t. For example, I recently had a talk with my younger (by 19 years) sister (she’s 23 now) and told her that the privilege of youth was behind her.
I found this list unrealistic and illogical.
Many thanks for putting together this list. We link to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child at our school’s website – I added a line before that directing people to this blog entry. (http://freedom-hill.org/RightsoftheChild.aspx) Hoping to get people to think!
All the best. If you come to Maryland, please contact us about a visit!
Elaine
I read through this list with as open a mind as I could have at this point in my life. I see an issue that is fraught with contention, mostly because of the term “privilege” (at least in my opinion).
To me, a privilege is something that is earned through the learning process, through experience, through the assistance of others…and “almost always” comes with extra responsibility.
If anything, I guess the real issue I have with this list is that it makes very broad statements about several different levels of “child”. I do not think that anyone here would question the need to consider the age of a child before suggesting that lightswitches were mis-placed, or before choosing clothing (what is appropriate for the infant is not appropriate for the teens and tweens), etc.
And please keep in mind that there REALLY is another side. The societal standards that make it unacceptable for a child to dance in a restaurant and yell and scream also make it in appropriate for the adults. Does it always make sense? The adult who is delighted by good news and gives a whoop of joy is often looked on askance as well. Likewise the “rude” person (who perhaps has been looking forward ALL day to a very special dinner with a VERY special person on a very special day only to find something VERY WRONG with the food) who feels ignored and brushed off by the management…
There are movies made about adults who “act child-like”. You know where those usually end up? COMEDY– because most adults who allow themselves the delight a child is privileged (and often expected) to show in the world is is considered aberrant. On rare occasions these movies become inspirations for people to change things too. That’s the good side.
The list is true to an extent, but then all general lists are true. They are also false. And they are often one sided. The privileges the child gains by becoming an adult are often matched by an equal number of privileges that the adult has lost by no longer becoming a child.
So yes, I do think it is a great list. But I wonder if it is less about how much better adults have things over children than how each stage of life has its perks and detriments. Because you could take the whole list and apply it to a lot of senior citizens too. =(
“There are movies made about adults who “act child-like”. You know where those usually end up? COMEDY– because most adults who allow themselves the delight a child is privileged (and often expected) to show in the world is is considered aberrant.”
Your argument makes no sense.
Children who act their age aren’t privileged they’re considered neurotypical, whereas adults who act childlike are considered developmentally disabled. There’s stigma attached to being disabled, that’s why it’s frowned upon.
It’s disablism, not loss of child privilege.
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Not sure if this was already mentioned but:
(from a perspective of a baby)
I am often refused the basic necessities needed to become healthy, happy and well adjusted without regard for my being.
I am speaking here of the things like crying-it-out, being left to sleep separately from a mother at newborn, being forced formula, being left, often for extended periods of time, away from human bodies in carseats or strollers.
I feel like babies are so oppressed, as they are unable to express other than through crying which is seen as a nuissance and not as a means of communication. and the caretakers choices, to put their children in situations which have been shown to be destructive, either emotionally, physically, spiritually or mentally is considered to be “OK” because the parents have made the choice.
I could not agree more. We are taught to go against natural mammalian instincts and NOT to list to our babies. So sad.
My husband and I had read this post prior to a multi-family outing and I was struck by the language difference in the way adults speak to adults and adults speak to children.
For example- my son was terrified of trying the slide, but he clearly wanted to try. We were letting him take it at his own pace, which involved lots of going to the top, then changing his mind. At one point, another parent was holding at the end of the slide and looking at me (he had his hand on his back in position to shove him off the end of the slide) and said, “Well, it’s up to your mom.”
I replied, “no, really, it’s completely up to him. He’ll know when he’s ready to give it a try.” and another friend helped him down.
By the end of our outing, everyone was sliding with abandon- some just needed a little more freedom to explore it first.
The language difference is what really strikes me. I understand, on the one hand, that kids sometimes need more explicit language, but tone matters too. So many people will just say “No!” to a child, something they would NEVER say to an adult.
If, in my early years, I am fed what I am supposed to eat, and what is physiologically the perfect food for me, many people expect me to eat in a public toilet, or to never eat my perfect food outside my home, even though I might get hungry again just half an hour after I have eaten. The solution to this “problem” that is often offered is to give me substandard food that can cause a host of health problems later in life.
YES!
I almost feel as if this HAS to be satire. Do you even notice the inconsistencies presented here? I.e., a child deserves to be able to vote and/or support him or herself economically, but also shouldn’t be held accountable for basic manners in public? … Please tell me this is a parody.
A couple of thoughts. I think that some of the objections to some of the list comes from there being no age indicators for specific privileges. Perhaps they could be grouped by age or developmental stage, e.g. When I am an Infant..Toddler, Child, Pre-Teen, Teen-Ager or something to that effect.
Also I was surprised that no one mentioned genital alteration, which in the US is usually male circumcision and surgery on children with “ambiguous” genitalia to assign them to their “proper” gender. It could be worded like:
Shortly after birth my caregiver may decide to have my genitals permanently, irrevocably altered through surgery.
If I am a boy this surgery may be the removal of the foreskin of my penis.
If I am labeled as having ambiguous genitals, a surgeon and my caregiver may assign a sex to me and surgically alter my genitals to conform to that sex.
Since female genital cutting is not legal here I didn’t include it. Perhaps should be there despite the prohibition.
Also caregivers can permanently modify a child’s body through ear piercing; more common with girls but increasingly with boys, too.
Oh, I just thought of something else:
I can be forced to hug and kiss people in my family even if I do not want to be touched. That one is close to my heart. I was a child that didn’t like to be touched, moreso if I didn’t know the person well.
Please feel free to use,edit, or modify any of this as you see fit. Thanks for doing this.
As I read this post, infant male genital cutting flashed through my head!! Thank you! Intact genitals are a basic human right!
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Hey All! I am new in this community. Just wanted to greet you all
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I can appreciate this list. I am at a loss for what to do with it, though. Some of the items are easy to address (physical abuse, being yelled at, being ignored…). Simple respect. (Even if not simple to achieve sometimes, it is easy to see the solution). But others….this is really tough. I see the point. I understand that children have little or no choice, but is giving them that freedom really prudent? I agree with many comments that we are supposed to protect them. We are supposed to guide them. I also never thought about some of these points. While I don’t think they should be able to vote, be given complete financial freedom, or make some of the choices suggested, I do find it a struggle to imagine life from this position….Of course I have the maturity to understand the responsibility that goes with these actions. I’m twisted in knots over this list. I think it is extremely important that we respect our children. I think it is extremely important that we can truly see their point of view. And I get that (assume that?) this list is to open some eyes to that perspective. But to change most of the things on it would be to allow children to make choices they don’t possess the maturity to make and act out in ways that do not teach them respect of others. Take into consideration that children are immature, and do not expect they are ready for some of the “privileges” we have as adults. But also understand the difficulty that comes along with not having a choice, and find a balance. Give them choices where it is practical. Wardrobe as a toddler. How to spend their allowance as a teen. Simple, but confidence building. You have to give them the tools necessary to make these larger life decisions. I don’t think you are suggesting a 12 year old be given the right to vote. Or that our toddlers get paid equally for their work (my son LOVES helping me with dishes
). Wow. I’d say this is a very thought provoking article. Good stuff.
And something I think should be here:
People feel free to make comments about me, my appearence (wardrobe, hair, dirty face), my mood (“well aren’t we grumpy”), or my behavior. This can be at my expense, and may upset me or hurt my feelings. I am not expected to understand or hear what is said.
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” 2. I am almost always dependent on others for my economic support.
1. I do not get to make choices about family finances, when to spend money and on what”
Because if kids decided what the family spent money on they’d be buying dinosaur toys instead of food.
For fuck’s sake.
And it’s not possible that parents spend money on alcohol and drugs instead of food. Or junk food instead of healthy food. Meh!
You are aware, Oberon, that child doesn’t just mean two year olds?
I’ve got one to add.
If my opinion conflicts with that of a person older than me, my opinion is not taken seriously, and is condescendingly dismissed as immature.
I really love this checklist. My mother, in my mind, was abusive- but it’s so damn difficult to prove it because so many behaviors that would unquestionably be seen as abusive when ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD did them is seen as 100% acceptable for parents to do to their children.
Another problem is that children are supposed to be extremely grateful to their caregivers. I feel like scum for saying that I hate my mother. Because we’re taught to love and respect our parents and that you owe your parents for the time they spent raising you- wanting to be separated from her is incredibly difficult and makes me feel like a bad person, no matter how painful just seeing or hearing her is for me.
It’s so difficult with children, though, because they are still developing. I honestly don’t know how much of the problem is that we treat children like ignorant little proto-humans who desperately depend on others and how much of it is that before a certain age kids really can’t take care of themselves that well.
And then we have to deal with the ablism inherent in the system… Which, actually, might be the only issue here. Most people seem to see PwD at the same level as they see small children…
I really like this list. It encourages me to think more about the things my young nephews have to deal with- being forcefully taken out of a room kicking and screaming, having adults stand over them and laugh while they cry or shout, only being able to eat what other people choose for them. I just wish I could do something about it. My youngest nephew gets spanked and I can’t call CPS because it’s probably not even considered child abuse.
lawl i couldn’t even get the whole way through this list
thanks for the lulz!
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If by “interesting” you mean “freaking hilarious” and “in the inboxes of my fellow elementary school faculty”, mission accomplished!
(tl;dr – GIRL, BYE.)
If you allow children the same exact rights as an adult, you end up with a situation akin to Lord of the Flies. Most children are incapable of fending for themselves or having any kind of rational thought and need parental guidance throughout their childhood so that they can come to the same basic understanding of life as a whole that their caregivers have.
As a simple example, if you let children vote for the President of a country, you’ll end up with the Wiggles as President.
Lord of the Flies type situations has and does happen with adults, too, so I don’t see much of a comparison. I’d say, if anything, children are more honest about it.
And think about it. Maybe we NEED Wiggles as President. At the very least, it wouldn’t be much worse than the last couple of adult Presidents we’ve had. Children, in my experience, have an uncanny knack for pointing out what people (their age and otherwise) really need (as opposed to what we think we need) and usually do it in a straightforward-enough manner that it can’t be misconstrued. They’re cruel sometimes, sure, but so are adults, and adults are much more subtle and nefarious about it.
One of the more ridiculous, ageist things I’ve seen is when people lump everyone under the age of 18 into monolithic group of “children”, without regards to the widely different developmental stages and abilities of teenagers vs. toddlers vs. pre-adolescents vs. pre-schoolers. This list does exactly that. Very few 14-year-olds do not worry about reaching the light switch. Absolutely no three-year-olds worry about getting an abortion. (I would hope, anyway.) Eleven-year-olds rarely need assistance for bodily needs like using the toilet.
How is it supposed to be helpful to lump such a diverse group of people together? How is it “personhood” to assume they all face the same problems, especially when they obviously don’t?
(Oh, and most children can have their “property” taken away from them because it is very often bought and paid for by and the actual property of their parents. A parent taking a misbehaving child’s toy away is not theft, and is in no way related to actual oppression.)
(Oh, and most children can have their “property” taken away from them because it is very often bought and paid for by and the actual property of their parents. A parent taking a misbehaving child’s toy away is not theft, and is in no way related to actual oppression.)
So gifts don’t count as a person’s property? My car was bought for me by my ex-fiancé, does that mean if it gets stolen I have no right to get it back because it wasn’t ‘really’ mine?
Why didn’t you respond to the rest of the criticisms in Ella’s post? Lumping all children regardless of ago into a generic group as this list does makes many of the items seem ridiculous. It may be possible to make a list that applies to ALL children, but this is definitely not it.
lol.
children are treated like children bc they are not mentally capable of acting as adults. case closed.
if u want them to economically independent, lets ship the whole lot of them to desk jobs, so they can finance their own pre school, middle school and high school then college education. or better yet, lets throw them in the mines so they can make a few bucks for themselves.
this is absolutely ridiculous. children cant vote – how is their choice going to be in any way mentally balanced? please.
i couldnt even get through half of this list. this is absolutely ridiculous and i couldn’t stop laughing. as soon as i birth my children and i will set them free in this world to make their own choices – im sure it will be a strawberry filled winter wonderland.
hey, i dont want to oppress my child! its not my fault a 3 year old cant find a fucking job. sorry i had to leave you out of the house because you cant pay rent. oops!
Thank you. Completely agree.
Being mentally balanced is your basis for not allowing children to vote? Because if that’s so, there are a whole slew of adults who shouldn’t be voting, either.
Just sayin’.
Thank you for taking the time to put this list together. As the child of an abusive parent, I can relate to many of the problems you list here. I would add “The culture of my generation is maligned and derided by my caretakers, who then refuse to allow me access to it”. Or something to that effect.
Thanks so much for this. I have a few ideas of things you might want to add:
- Something about abuse. Minors who live in abusive households are economically and legally restricted, and must rely on adults (social workers, for example) to remove them from dangerous situations. And, if they escape on their own, they are incredibly vulnerable and have very few rights.
- Children are at an increased risk of sexual assault.
- Mental health: Children are not allowed to advocate for their own psychological needs. Minors have to rely on their parents if they want to see a therapist or receive psychiatric care.
- Access to birth control, Plan B (I think abortion was mentioned, but I think contraception was not?)
- Every single thing that “a parent or guardian” must sign for if one is under 18.
Let me know if I’m incorrect or off base about any of these things.
To all the commenters hating on this: I think you’re missing the point. It’s not “a list of rights that should immediately be afforded to ALL children!” It’s a list of privileges granted to you when you become an “adult” (over 18, or over 21, or whenever that ~*magical age*~ is where people start treating you like an adult) in Western society. No one is saying two-year-olds should be given jobs and bank accounts, for crying out loud.
Let me also point out that, in true form, I’m pretty sure that every single person objecting in whole to this list is an adult themselves. What a shock! I’m 19, so it wasn’t that long ago that I was legally a minor. I implore you disapproving adults to try and remember when YOU were a child–and especially a teenager. I think teenagers are oppressed in a lot of unique ways, perhaps deserving its own list.
There’s a lot more to “good parenting” than simply providing for your child’s basic needs and refraining from physically and/or mentally abusing them. Everyone’s parenting “style” is different, but this much should be at the core: basic respect, unconditional love and acceptance, and treating your child as hir own person. As an equal. It seems so obvious to me, but apparently it’s difficult for a lot of folks to wrap their heads around. Maybe that’s why so many of us kids are so fucked up.
Thank you for saying this. Agreed.
Laura, FTW.
This is a great checklist! Did young people write it, though? It seems like it could be even better and more representative if a thorough survey was done of many young people to make sure to include as much as possible.
I’m also wondering about the experiences of young people of a wide variety of class backgrounds and ethnic backgrounds too. Maybe it represents a variety already, but it would be an important place to start in asking lots of young people for their input!
Again, the list is fabulous and well-articulated. As a nanny and as someone who tries my best to be an ally to young people, I’ve thought of many/most of these issues, but I’ve never seen so many put together in one list.
I love this and shared the link on facebook!
A few thoughts…
For 3B, did you mean even *MORE THAN* once?
For 2, I’m trying to think about why it’s a problem that the caregiver isn’t a peer. I’m a fan of people in generations working and living together in harmony. If a child is 2, he doesn’t want a peer to help him change his diaper. At any age, I am my children’s caregiver and advocate. It’s my job to hear what they want, give them the freedom to go get it, and help them get it when they need help.
Here’s another one: Children sometimes aren’t given the choice about what clothing to wear.
Some thoughts about some comments from other posters:
-Children shouldn’t *HAVE* to work, but there shouldn’t be laws prohibiting them from doing so. There are a lot of kids who would LOVE to have a job to earn their own money. I truly believe one big reason we have child labor laws are to keep children from taking jobs from adults. And I believe one big reason we have compulsory attendance laws is to keep children out of the hair of the rest of society, who have anti-child prejudices.
-In my family, my children have a say over how we spend our money. My daughter wanted more spending money but didn’t want a job, so she started extreme couponing and helping me cook more frugal meals. That gives our family more free money in our budget for things the kids want to do.
Currently, the family reports all spending to my 11 year old, who keeps track of how much we spend in a week to see if we have gone over budget. If someone wants to buy something, we ask him how our budget is looking. If anyone in our family wants or needs something that we can’t afford that week, we brainstorm together to help figure out a way to meet the needs of that person, whether they’re 2 or 52. Maybe we’ll eat rice and beans instead of pizza so we can buy that shirt someone wants, or we’ll have a night of creating altered clothing so we can spend money on a pizza party someone wants instead of on clothing.
On kids eating at a restaurant late at night: First, if a kid is crying and screaming, chances are he doesn’t want to be there. Or someone is disregarding what he wants. I do talk to my kids about what is appropriate behavior (for people of ALL ages) at a restaurant, and if he still wants to go to the restaurant, I go prepared to leave with him if the experience turns out to be more than he can handle. If he gets tired, I can leave with him. If he gets bored waiting for food, maybe a game of tic tac toe or a walk around the block will help. If he’s overly hungry, I’ll ask the waitress what would be the quickest appetizer she could bring. Or pull out a packet of crackers from my purse.
But don’t assume all kids out late at night are going to be tired or miserable, or that they’re at a restaurant simply because the mom isn’t considering their needs. My kids have gone through phases when they stayed up past midnight and woke up at noon. Then again, they’ve gone through phases where they made sure to go to bed early so they could get up early for an activity they’re excited about. If a child isn’t being forced to go to school against his will, and if he hasn’t chosen any activities for himself that involve early rising, he might very well have eaten breakfast at noon, lunch at 4, and be hungry for dinner at his favorite restaurant at 10. As he should have the freedom to do.
First off, I am a single mom of a preteen. Parts of this list are probably some of the most horrifying checklists I have ever seen. Really? This is completely ridiculous. Of course, doctors speak to the caregiver because some children cannot understand what the doctor is saying. Also, to put that type of responsibility on a kid to take care of their own illness is awful. Parents and caregivers jobs is to take care of their children because their children, developmentally (and other reasons), aren’t able to. A child can’t make their own medicial decisions – that’s completely unreasonable for them to make their own decisions. They don’t understand chemotherapy and how to give themselves medication because that is their care giver’s job (for example). Why would I expect my child to know about her asthma meds? She doesn’t need to worry about that, she already knows she has to have her inhaler with her at all times and that’s enough responsibility for her. Another thing about the films – really? Children need limits because it’s completely unacceptable for a child to watch pornography. As far as sexuality, there needs to be limits. If a caregiver was completely open to their child’s sexual growth OR letting their child make the decision, they could become victims or predators. There needs to be limits because sexual exploration with adults is completely unacceptable. As far as voting – how is the kid to be educated on this? And when would they start voting? Would newborns vote? I understand laws are mad about them, but how are kids expected to know what laws to make about themselves? Parents and caregivers may use their children as tools to vote for who the parents want to vote for. That’s completely wrong. Of course kids need help to take care of their bodily needs – that’s what parents and caregivers are for. My child also shouldn’t be in a position to worry about family finances. That’s the job of the adult/parent/caregiver. I don’t tell my kid about that stuff because she doesn’t need to worry. (We’re poor).
I don’t understand the point of this list. Some of these things are inevitable to being a kid. While i understand that things like force feeding are not considered abuse as a society (I think it’s abuse and NEVER force feed my kid) and other parts of this list I agree, other parts are so ridiculous, I think. I also think any type of physical punishment should be outlawed (I’ve never spanked my kid or physically hurt her in any way). I think a lot of things are seen as abusive behavior, by society, but others don’t know about it. Kids are abused probably more than most people know, but families with issues may not be aware of how it is abusive and things are kept secret. Also, other cultures may find certain abuse acceptable and people may play the “that’s their culture” card instead of actually making a decision about how something is abusive.
Anyway, some of this was honestly rather horrifying because some things should not be a kid’s responsibility to worry about anyway. The current pediatrician my daughter goes to actually talks to her (and me) and I know that helps. However, I am the responsible person to know about her illness so I can take care of her. Children need limits because developmentally, that’s reality. While I agree with some parts of this list, I wanted to point out the parts that I found absolutely ridiculous.
Also, an adult wrote this right? That seems to go against the logic of such a checklist.
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I am always happy to see anyone approach adult-child divisions with the same critical eye and compassion as other societal divisions which are more frequently (but still not often enough) deconstructed/critically evaluated. One thing that really gets on my nerves, that could be added to this list is that is still perfectly acceptable for a person to say they “hate children” in arenas where they would be called out for saying they hate women or a particular ethnic group.
xx. Adults think it’s ok to tell me white lies that fit their needs because they know I can’t see through them (yet)
it’s all accurate and i only read up to #6 because #4 & #6 reminded me of my own horrible childhood. ..then we as adults end up perpetrating it like a cycle. But parenting is a balancing act when you weren’t parented right to begin with. Grrrr I’m all about kids being taken SERIOUSLY and respected but also they need guidance…after all they cannot be expected to make the rules for themselves, hello? but I wanna play in the street, but i wanna smoke weed….
OMG read the above comment and it reminded me of the torture of being invisible my entire childhood..adults….shunned even by my own blood siblings! nusance, in the way, no wonder i flunked 1st grade math!
I think this list really is spot-on! It’s a lot of stuff we don’t really think about, but it would be astonishing if a lot of that stuff applied to adults. The interesting thing though, is that while it’s “ok” because these things happen to children, it still doesn’t make it right. Unlike other checklists like this, the idea isn’t to change all of this so it no longer applies- we would then be treating children like miniature adults, which wouldn’t be helpful either, it would ignore an integral part of who they are. The idea (so far as I can gather) is to be aware of all of these aspects of a child’s life, which aren’t fair, so that as caregivers, both of our own children and those temporarily in our care, we can reduce the unfairness, while still providing the care and guidance that children need. I’m not a parent, but I do babysit children often, and when I do I try to find a balance between assuring the child’s needs (and the wishes of the parent) and respecting the child’s wants.
Did you herar about a similar list on youthright.org?
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I have never seen more idiocy in one post and so many idiots agreeing in reply.
Jesus Christ people, parents are not an oppressive regime. Yes life isn’t fair at that age, you also know what isn’t fair? Being a parent and dealing with one whiny-ass teenager constantly doing shit that’s dangerous to themselves.
Focus on something actually oppressive for once. Cultures in different countries that kill women for thinking for themselves, cultures who preform female circumcisions, cultures that rape gay people and throw them into jail.
That’s oppressive you dumb fucks. Not parents telling you to eat your broccoli.
+1!
Cultures in different countries that turn children into soldiers and brainwash them into mindless killing machines because they are in a position of vulnerability and available for extortion without complaint. Or how about just cultures in different countries that employ children in what is essentially slave labour so as to make the clothes on your back. Shut the fuck up and educate yourself.
While you’re right about these atrocities (and you didn’t even include the girls whose families sell them into sexual slavery in other countries), I think it’s important to remember that in those countries you speak of, most of the adults don’t have the privileges that we have in the Western world. I would cite voting as an example. So, really, to use this list of privilege as a measure for any culture/country that is 2nd or 3rd world is really rather pointless, don’t you think? It’s very easy to say “See how lucky we are compared to them” when we talk about the plight of children in, say, rural India or in some African countries. But their parents are in situations that are not the same as ours at all. We cannot judge them by our cultural norms, as our lives are so different. I assume that the people who read and comment here are fairly well educated. Most of the people who put children to work in factories or as soldiers have little more than the education that my 4 year-old has.
Of course you’re right – privilege as a concept can only exist within the societal structures, not as a thing unto itself. However, the focus of privilege/oppression dynamics is quite brilliant at finding similarities across wildly different cultures – oppression seems to be something which humans can find their common ground on. Heterosexual, cissexual, able-bodied males have privilege just about everywhere – whereas women, people who are not able-bodied and people in LGBTQ community will be at a disadvantage. Of course the nature of the disadvantages are different – woman in Somalia are treated as commodities to be bought and sold, whereas women in New York will not be selected for a job because a man with the same qualifications is less likely to need to take maternity leave. There are clearly different levels of systematic oppression there, the only thing similar is the focus of the oppression.
My point, is that children are always vulnerable, always easy targets and always treated as second class citizens – in evolved western societies they tend to get a level of protection along with their heavily edited human rights, whereas in less developed societies they don’t. I am incredibly privileged in that I am a white, upper-middle class person, and incredibly lucky in that my parents went out of their way to extract sexism and ageism from my upbringing – I was always treated, first and foremost, as a person, an individual whose thoughts and emotions were of no less worth than an adult. But in my society, it is still expected that I blindly respect people who are older than me, on no grounds other than their seniority – their reciprocation is simply not an issue. It is also expected that I go to school every day and obey without question the demands of my teachers, regardless of their legitimacy. The media in my (very well developed country) treat me and my peers with suspicion and hostility which culminates in people feeling offended by my very presence on “their streets” after about 9 o’clock at night – but I can’t own property, so where should I go? Shops install “mosquito devices” to prevent people my age from “hanging around”, which causes me discomfort because my ears can still hear the high noises that adults cannot. Having a higher quality of high school qualifications than the majority of people in my country, I would argue that I can follow political ideology and dogma just as well as someone five years my senior, and yet it is laughable that I should be allowed the vote – whereas if I wanted to join the army, I am perfectly able to do so: I am old enough to die, it seems. Perhaps this is not oppression, but then someone had better give me another word to describe a system in which a person is seen as a second class citizen at best, and an “animal” at worst, due to some personal quality that is beyond their control.
I noticed that you placed the word “female” in front of the word “circumcision”. Are you telling us that circumcising a non-consenting male infant for non-medical reasons is ok? Your sexism is showing.
Exactly what I was thinking Page! Everyone should be able to make decisions on how their body is mutilated(ie. circumcision, tattoos, piercings. Anything that alters the body permanently)
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I totally agree with this list. Children, teens and very young adults are on the raw end of a lot of hypocrisy and unfair treatment. I could go on forever about the double standards and worse that young people have to deal with. My favorite one: when an adult complains or expresses distress, anger or hurt about something, they’re simply complaining/expressing emotion and they are listened to and usually get a degree of sympathy or at least a neutral response. When a kid, teen or 20something complains they’re seen as a spoiled brat who should be grateful that they don’t live in South Africa.
I think it’s ridiculous that a parent with a screaming child is asked to leave the movie theater. You do not have a right to child free spaces. Who are you to say that people should be quiet during movies? Wanting to watch a rated R film without any children in the auditorium is child-hate and by extension misogynist.
Who are any of you to say that a 6 year old can’t vote? Mentally incapable of making informed voting decisions? That’s a load of BS. If there are decisions impacting their life, then they certainly have an opinion on it and have the right to vote on it.
And what’s with all these naysayers saying it’s your “duty” as a parent to force your child to become the way you want them to be? What if your child doesn’t want to be that? That’s the point of this entire list, to expose this BS, and you lot are trying to push it.
@Light Fang:
“I think it’s ridiculous that a parent with a screaming child is asked to leave the movie theater. You do not have a right to child free spaces. Who are you to say that people should be quiet during movies? Wanting to watch a rated R film without any children in the auditorium is child-hate and by extension misogynist.”
Bullshit. I’m sorry but I have to call you out on this one. The rule about being quiet in a movie theater applies to everyone. Adults who talk on their cell phones or who carry on loud conversations which impair the rest of the audience from hearing the movie get asked to leave all the time. So it’s not child hate – it’s asking all people to respect the rules of the theater. I’ve asked people to shut up or leave the movie – even my own husband – so I don’t think I wouldn’t ask someone else to take their child out so I can hear the movie. You pay for your ticket knowing what the expected behavior of all sitting in the theater is and paying the ticket means that you accept those rules. If I pay $15 for a movie ticket, I don’t expect anyone to keep me from hearing it. By the same token, if my kids can’t shut up, they have to come out to the lobby until they can stop talking, crying, etc. Not because they don’t have the right to cry, but because they don’t have the right to keep others from enjoying something they paid for. If I or my kids miss some of the movie, that’s our own problem. But I don’t have the right to impair the ability of other movie-goers to hear the dialogue, simply because I don’t want to miss the film and my child is crying or my cell phone rings. It’s called common courtesy. We all should learn it – adults as well as children – rather than think that our own desires trump the desires of others.
And when you use the word misogynist, make sure you use it properly. To be misogynist is to have a hatred, mistrust or dislike for women. It does not apply specifically to children. If you are using it to imply that only moms get asked this or to say that only moms take care of children and would therefore be the ones taking a child to the movies, that is totally a patriarchal view in itself.
Now, being asked to leave a restaurant because of noisy children is an entirely different matter.
I think you’ve missed the point that Light Fang was actually being sarcastic, trying to “point out” that I (the original author) am being ‘absurd’.
This is patently absurd. I, and most other children throughout the history of the world, were and are fucking monsters. They have to be taught how to act. Adults earned their “privilege” through ltime and learning. They had to grow up. Kids don’t deserve shit, save for having their human needs met. They do not need to collect the same interest in their savings accounts, they do not need to earn as much as adults. They do not need to fucking have the right to vote. We are not living in the industrial era, children are financially and emotionally dependant on their care takers. They have the “privilege” of not working and instead are cared for while they recieve an education.
No, children are not monsters. You are just a bigot.
You are less polite and more poorly mannered than every three year old on my block. You do not deserve “respect”.
I was a child at one point, believe it or not. And, in my brief time, I have met quite a few. I think I know how awful they can be when the mood strikes them. Even very good children can be outright awful people. Just like adults, but magnified because they have not learned anything yet.
Are you around those three year olds every day, twenty four seven? Even when they have stopped being cute? Have you seen them mutilate insects, or tease other children to the point of wanting to die, or kick a household pet right in the face? I’m not saying children can’t be good, or don’t deserve love; they do, very much so. I’m only saying that they are not old enough to understand how to act and thus cannot handle the privileges of adulthood. Is that really so wrong to say?
You forgot to add in that its an adult’s privilege to speak for her children about what privilege they feel adults have over them.
Do you know, you may be being facetious and trying to poke fun at me, but you’re right. It is adult privilege that caused me and allowed me to write this list. I think I will add that in at the end.
I was being serious AND poking fun at you.
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Thank you for this. As a parent and child-rights-advocate, it’s frustrating just how difficult it can be to make people *see* the privilege. To understand what it is like to be a child and to be routinely treated as somehow ‘less’ than everyone else around you.
It’s silly that some people have so wildly misunderstood you as to think that privilege = discrimination. It’s not discrimination that I can vote and my 3 yr old can’t. It is, however, a privilege I have that he doesn’t. There are very real differences in the amount of control adults have over their lives and the amounts kids have.
Some people, of course, just don’t get it. Maybe they don’t want to. Either way, still, thank you.
It seems like many of the posters here in the comments don’t really understand the concept of a “privilege checklist”. No one is saying that children deserve these rights or that these things should necessarily be changed — this is merely a thought exercise to help us see the world from a child’s perspective. Yeah, a 6-year-old lacks the understanding to vote, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t, in some ways, suck to be a 6-year-old who has no input in the decisions that affect your life.
Then what is the purpose of a “privilege checklist”? If the issues on this list shouldn’t be changed and children don’t necessarily deserve them, what’s the point of the list?
Also, no thought exercise needed, we have all ALREADY seen the world from a child’s perspective.
It may suck not to have input as a 6 year-old, but what is the alternative? I’m not confused, I just don’t feel this checklist is beneficial, to children or adults.
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As the parent of a 5 year old, and a former child myself, I can’t help but feel that this is a joke. It HAS to be, right?
Voting: ask your “stature-challenged individual” (since child, kid, baby, etc must be age-ist terms, right?) who they think should be president. Are they watching the debates? do they know the differences in the American party system? Do they even know what a logical platform is?
Peer Vs. Caregiver: I don’t know about you, but if someone with the mentality of a child is responsible for the care and well-being of a child, there are some serious issues abound.
Physical Assault: what are we defining as assault here? is smacking a kid’s hand away from a hot stove or knife or electrical socket assault? or should they be allowed to injure themselves in the name of exploration? Spanking vs. no-spanking is a dividing issue, obviously, but to call discipline assault is ludicrous and smacks of an author that was spanked as a kid and hated their parents for it.
Yelling/Criticism: Emotional abuse is bad across the board; do you really think that anyone in their right mind would think that it is ok to treat a child like that? Because adults get that all the time, in the REAL WORLD. It’s a fact of life for an adult, yet children are (and should be) sheltered from it. Again, I can’t help but think that this is the construct of someone who was treated poorly by their parents and thinks this is how all children are treated.
Economic Dependency: It is a parent/caregivers RESPONSIBILITY to provide for their child. It is actually one of the markers of true adulthood that one is no longer financially dependent upon their family.
Being Hushed: Kids say the darnedest things, but they aren’t necessarily contributing to an adult conversation in a meaningful manner. No doubt children should be included in conversations in order to help them develop proper social skills, but there comes a time when a child’s incessant blather about what they watched on Dora today gets a bit annoying. Being told to hush at appropriate times also helps them develop proper conversational skills.
Age-Appropriate Behavior: There was a time, not too many years ago, when children were encouraged to act like “little adults” in public. Children WANTED to make their parents proud with their “grown-up” actions. Parents actually felt embarrassed when their child was screaming at the top of their lungs and running around a restaurant. Sadly, these times are no longer. In an age of indulgence, children have become little tyrants allowed to act in ANY manner they choose.
Bad Language: While it is more and more common for adults to freely use profanity in day-to-day conversation, that doesn’t make it acceptable. We teach children to be mindful of their language in order to help them become more adept at polite and intelligent conversation. Manners are a dying art, it seems.
Mental Health: You can’t be serious with this one. Children are routinely sent to counseling and mental health professionals in first-world countries (and I presume you’re only speaking from a first-world perspective, since children living in squalor and ghettos have MUCH harder lives than over-privileged and coddled children in our nation and others); so much so, in fact, that people are actually having to speak out against the over-treatment and over-medication of children in these modern times.
Decisions made by more competent individuals: Given the choice, the average kid would eat pizza for dinner, washed down with soda, and have some ice-cream for breakfast the next morning. Taking a bath sucks, so does brushing ones teeth, thus they would be free of the societal impositions of hygiene. Given the choice, my friend’s 7 year-old son would never stop playing video games.
This is particularly ridiculous because children are NOT equipped to care for themselves properly. Let a kid raise themselves with no parental input and it’s considered neglect; provide input and we’re suppressing their rights to free choices. Right.
I have to stop here, because this is one of the most painful things I’ve had to read in a long time. I understand that whoever wrote this must hate their Mom and Dad for making them go to school, eat healthily, speak properly and go to bed at a decent hour. I get that. It seems that this trend in lax parenting (I suppose calling it parenting is a bit much, since that would imply action of some sort to parent) stems from individuals that are rebelling against their parents influence and saying “I’m NEVER gonna be like my old man” when it comes to raising kids.
And the prize for ‘Missing The Point Entirely’ goes to this commenter!
Since you said this in response to my post and to the one below mine, what IS the point then?
The point is that not everyone has the same childhood experiences. You can’t say that systematic societal oppression doesn’t exist on the sole basis of an arbitrary “well when I was a child…” Some woman never suffer directly from oppression – I, certainly, have never been persecuted for my gender. But I am aware that woman as a group are oppressed. Similarly, my upbringing was very relaxed and my parents very tolerant, but I was aware that some of my peers were suffering as a direct result of oppressive systems. Just because you’re drowning in your own privilege, doesn’t mean everyone else is. I have friends who work and go to school full time, get paid a crappy lower-than-adult minimum wage, and are given no money from their parents.
You are classifying all “stature-challenged individuals” (mmm, condescension, yum) under one category. I’m seventeen. I understand my countries voting system. I can die for my country. I would take very great offense if someone (anyone, but particularly someone who had POWER over me) verbally or physically abused me, even if I do say “the darndest things” when they’d rather I just “hush”. I can behave myself in a restaurant. I’ll regulate my language to suit my tastes and nobody else’s, fuck you very much, because I’m an individual and I have the right to speak in whatever way I like.
I’m a medical student. Do you know how we’re told to differentiate between a child who can give consent and a child who can’t? By their capacity to understand. That’s right – not every child fits into your neat little box of “completely incompetent in every way”. At least in the British medical profession’s view, children’s capacity should be judged on an individual basis. And regardless of capacity, you treat the patient with respect, and you talk to the patient – not their parent – because (surprise!) children are actually human beings, not pets.
So you’re 17 and a medical student. A *real* medical student, or you just go to the library and read a lot of medical books? It’s a legitimate question, not being snarky; I didn’t realize that Doogie Howser was making a comeback.
And riddle me this, doc; Regardless of the mental capacity of the child in question, is it even *legal* to perform ANY type of medical procedure on a child without a guardian’s consent, barring emergency situations?
And no, in a legitimate country with a legitimate military, a 17 year old would not be allowed in a combat situation to die for their country; 17 may be eligible to join the military, but you must be 18 to see any action. Nice try at the kid/martyr thing, though.
A real medical student in as much as I go to university and study medicine? In certain places in Britain, 17 is when you leave high school. And of course it is legal to perform medical procedures without the guardian’s consent – at least in my country. If a child walks into an emergency room, even with a non-fatal injury, they are treated. The doctors don’t hang around waiting for adults to turn up. Although, I suppose in your country you have to wait to see if the credit card will go through first.
I have a friend who signed a contract with the army when she was 16 and is now going to Afghanistan. She made the decision and has been trained for combat for the last two years. It didn’t matter that she hasn’t been in a combat situation – she was allowed to make the decision when she was 16. She was allowed to choose to put herself in a potentially fatal career when she was 16. But she isn’t allowed to choose and support a political party. She has broken her nose twice and her wrist once during said training, but isn’t allowed to drink, because she’s too ‘immature’ to know her own limits.
All I’m saying is that there seems to be a disparity of opinion in society over the concept of maturity. I realise that it’s easy to shove everyone under 18 into the box of ‘immature and socially ill-equipped’ but it’s simply not accurate. 18 as the magical age of maturity is a societal construct, and often age will be the one deciding influence in an adult’s judgment (and condemnation) of a younger person. Factors such as innate intelligence, social ability and level of education go completely ignored. I believe that maturity is a sliding scale, is situational, and cannot be defined by absolutes. I’m not advocating five year olds being treated as responsible adults with full awareness of consequences and reasoning capability; I’m advocating five year olds being treated as people – with compassion, tolerance, and respect for autonomy. Autonomy, because I also believe that children do not belong to their parents.
Here, here, Raennem! As I said above, many commenters don’t seem to understand that this is not intended as a list of rights children don’t have but should; rather, it is a list of privileges that people above the age of majority generally take for granted, and people below it often do not have — regardless of their capabilities.
1) Medical training in the UK which begins after high school takes 5 years but will only earn you a bachelor’s degree (bachelor of medicine or bachelor of surgery), which is akin to a 5-year degree in engineering or architecture at most US universities. The main difference is how the clinical studies are done compared to the US. Remember that in the US only the first 2 years of med school are done in a classroom setting and the second 2 are almost exclusively clinical. In the UK there are a couple different ways the 5 years are divided up. Neither is necessarily better than the other.
2) I notice that you say that your friend spent 2 years training to go in to combat. That doesn’t contradict what wtfimi said about not being able to be in combat until 18. I hope your friend does well, although my husband is a military medical doctor and based on things he’s told me it quite frankly doesn’t matter if one participates in actual one-on-one combat or if one is in a base that gets mortared, or even if one sees one’s comrades in arms blown up by an IED. War is a terrible thing that takes a massive toll on all who experience it, both physically and mentally. So while a 16 year-old may make that decision, that individual isn’t getting sent anywhere until they’ve reached the legal age of majority.
3) While many young people have the capacity to make adult decisions, it has been shown that the brain doesn’t reach maturity until the early 20′s. You will learn this in your medical studies. Hence the reason for the reluctance to allow people under the age of 18 to make some legal decisions. In the US it stems from the fact that we live in a lawsuit-happy society and a young person under the age of 18 can change his/her mind when it comes to a binding decision, at which point the parents can and often will sue on behalf of the minor, with the reason being that the young person in question is not fully mature. This is actually the basis for the minimum age for drinking in the US is 21. A faulty reasoning imho, since making something taboo is likely to make an immature person want it even more, but that’s not really part of this discussion.
4) Further, while it is true that many people over the supposed “age of maturity” often behave in ways that are immature, that is considered a choice and cannot be blamed on an immature brain, unless, of course, the individual in question has a disability which makes them incapable of mature behavior in spite of their chronological age – a person with Williams syndrome, for example.
5) I resent your snotty remark about ER care and credit cards, but I’m willing to chalk that up to your age and defensiveness on this subject. But you should know well as a medical student, that the Hippocratic Oath says nothing about payment for medical treatment and medical professionals are bound by this oath to give care to all. There may be some individuals who don’t follow the oath but I have yet to meet a physician in the US who has refused ER treatment based on payment. They don’t do that and legally can’t. Just so you know, financial obligations are handled by the billing offices and doctors have nothing to do with that.
Thanks for your reply. I understand your reasoning on minors not being allowed to make certain legal decisions – and for the most part I would agree with you. Children DO have a lowered capacity for reasoning which makes appreciating their opinion on legally binding matters problematic. I’m aware of that. But this lowered capacity means that children are denied certain privileges that adults take for granted. It also makes them more vulnerable when the adults around them do not have their best interests at heart, which is too often the case. When those ‘adult’ privileges are denied to children beyond voting and drinking age and extended into things like allowing parents to assault their children, keeping minors segregated because adults don’t like to be around them, vilifying the youth in the media more than any other minority and generally just treating people under 18 as if they are not only “less” in every way, but a burden on society – that’s what I have a problem with. It is a denial of not only rights of citizenship, but also rights of humanity. This does not happen to people who are mentally incapable. People would never support hitting the disabled because they do not understand their carer’s request. So why are these arguments so supported when the subject is children?
Was your last point intentionally irritating? Don’t chalk up my opinion or my expression of that opinion to my age, okay? Chalk it up to my just generally being a snotty person, or my dislike of an institutionalised system in which medical care is something earned rather than given freely. I’m aware that nobody actually pays their medical insurance with a credit card at the door of US hospitals – you’re right, I was just being snotty about that. (Not just an adjective for children, I’m told.) I’m also aware that Doctors are generally not a monetarily-motivated group of people – I’m not playing the ‘our doctors are better than yours’ game. However, I’m also aware that people in your country die because they can’t afford to pay their hospital bills. And I believe that that is fundamentally wrong. Don’t excuse my opinion away with the age card simply because you don’t agree with it – that by itself doesn’t make me uninformed or naive. It’s an opinion which many people in my country, including the adults, share. My age does not detract from its legitimacy, but your privilege as an adult allows you to use my age as an argument in and of itself.
First let me address your points on being a legal minor:
1) I don’t think that the general population of adults intentionally doesn’t have the best interests of children at heart. In my experience – and I’m almost 40 and have lived in several parts of the world, so I’m going to say that I have a fairly varied experience, though I will admit to being white and middle-class and therefore privileged to a degree – people feel that what they do IS in the best interests of children, and on the face may seem so to them, even if it is proven later to not be in a child’s best interest.
Example: Here in the US, there is a ridiculous crusade to raise student performance in schools, based on test scores. To get students to perform well on the tests, teachers often find themselves “teaching to the test” and only covering the materials on which they will be tested. If students don’t perform well on the test, it is assumed that the teacher is a poor teacher and often good teachers get fired because their students don’t perform well. Obviously standardized tests are not the marker of knowledge that many officials think they are, and teaching to the test does a disservice to the students because they are only learning a subject within the small context of the test material, rather than learning it in a broader context and thinking for themselves. So what seems like a way to raise overall student achievement is really a way of keeping the student from really learning the material. In this instance, the school officials think they are doing a great thing for the students, when in fact they aren’t. I’ve taught high school and seen how this works. I’ve complained that it’s a false premise – raising test scores doesn’t mean that the children learn more or are better educated. But those who think it works truly believe that they’re doing something good.
2) Generally speaking I don’t read the news from the UK but the news I read in the US doesn’t seem to vilify youth in the way you describe. Perhaps I’m not going to the proper sources – it’s certainly possible. Most of the time the articles I see are about some great thing that a local youth has done. An article about high school senior from Michigan was recently on the headlines of the NY Times – it talked about how she was the kicker on her school’s football team, and how she was crowned homecoming queen in her uniform and then went on to score the winning field goal for her team. That’s pretty cool. If the news in the UK focuses on the negative things that a few people do and paints with a broad brush, then that is a problem that exists in the UK and maybe should be brought to the media’s attention. However, if you’re talking about articles which cite statistics say, for example, of youth and car accidents caused by texting or by being distracted because of one’s friends in the vehicle, I don’t call that vilifying youth – I call it statistics.
3) I’m not sure how hitting someone came into this discussion, since you seemed to be coming from the standpoint of one who is not quite considered an adult in some areas but is in some others. I thought you were addressing the lack of consistency in treatment of young people – specifically those who are in fact old enough to do one thing but not another, according to law – and making commentary on the ridiculousness of that.
4) Some so-called adult privileges should not be afforded to minors. In some states, minors can get married with parental consent as young as 14, simply because they are pregnant. While I’m not about to sanction teen pregnancy, I’m also not sanctioning teen marriage because of it. Why would anyone prefer to have a teenaged daughter married when she’s not even finished with school? The likelihood that she would finish school is low. My husband was a Physician Assistant before he got his MD and related to me a story about a 15 year-old from Alabama who was married to her soldier husband and had just found out she was pregnant. The parents had simply let her get married because it was easier than letting her be on birth control and have a relationship and go to school. Yes, this does bring in to play the idea that minors should be able to get birth control without parental consent. This is an important privilege that should be afforded young women, as it helps avoid necessitating another one.
Now I’ll talk about what you call my “intentionally irritating” remark:
1) Let’s start off by remarking on the fact that you intentionally made a nasty remark about US healthcare, whether in jest or not. It may not have intentionally been a commentary on the US healthcare system, but that’s how it comes off. And that makes you come off as immature. So, yes, while it may sound like clever and biting commentary (it is), it’s also a logical fallacy and you knew that but deliberately said it to be nasty and make the point that maybe having an NHS is a better system. It probably is. My father was from The Netherlands and when my grandmother was sick she got excellent care, better, I suspect, than she would have in the US had she lived here. And though my husband is a doctor, he’s a firm believer in the importance of nationalized health care. So I can respect your opinion in that regard. But I cannot respect the way you said it.
2) Having said that, I didn’t want to assume that you were being deliberately nasty, because that would be bitchy of me. I don’t know you. Maybe the only thing you know about the US healthcare system is some horror stories you’ve heard and you assume that those are indicative US healthcare as a whole. So I make the assumption about your lack of experience with US healthcare, as evidenced by your statement “However, I’m also aware that people in your country die because they can’t afford to pay their hospital bills.” This is also a logical fallacy, but I’ll assume that you don’t know how our system works here so maybe you don’t realize that.
People don’t die because they cannot pay their hospital bills. If one is in the hospital, one either has insurance or does not. If a patient has insurance, the insurance may cover all or a portion of the care. If there is no insurance, care cannot be refused, nor can a patient be discharged in the middle of care because his/her insurance has run out or doesn’t cover the entire portion. Most hospitals set up payment plans for those with little or no insurance, after care has been completed or, if the person who is charged with paying the hospital bills is not the one hospitalized, while the patient is in hospital. My mother and her husband currently have very little insurance. They also owe $30,000 in hospital bills due to emergency hospitalizations for my mother’s husband as a result of his heart conditions. They pay a set amount every month. And if he were to need another hospitalization, he wouldn’t be denied.
People die because they don’t have insurance and cannot afford ROUTINE MEDICAL CARE. I could cite to you study after study, statistic after statistic which show that routine medical care for children and adults would cut emergency room visits down significantly. Is it more expensive to provide ER care to at-risk populations (because that’s who uses the ER as a doctor’s office) than it is to provide them with regular routine health care. People end up in the ER with full-blown pneumonia because they can’t pay to see a doctor when they get sick with bronchitis, for example. Another reason the US needs nationalized health care.
3) I didn’t chalk your lack of knowledge up to your age – I chalked the snotty attitude up to age, because you were already ‘speaking’ with the assumption that people weren’t going to take you seriously because of your age. When you start off defensive, it’s hard for anyone to look past that. I had, until you made the nasty dig. So don’t complain about me being irritating when you gave as good as you got. I don’t excuse your opinion because of your age. I take exception to your tone and comment and say that your vehemence in insisting that your age shouldn’t matter got the better of you, and that’s because of your age. If you were fifty, I’d call it willful ignorance. In your case, I call it the righteousness of youth.
may in fact be because I’ve been alive longer. Or it may not. I don’t know you any better than I know my mail carrier.
Ignore the last bit at the end, it accidentally got copied and pasted from elsewhere. Sorry!
1. You are very right in this case. But there is a deeper problem at the heart of the issue too. Not only is the advise of professionals who are deeply invested and involved in the education of children being ignored – children are being ignored too. In my experience, any ‘consultation meetings’ with students will be a superficial and perfunctory glance at a drawn-out-the-hat panel of people who are completely disinterested in the proceedings. And the reason they are disinterested can be traced back to their education. Teachers are too busy getting students to rote-memorise passages from textbooks to inform students on things like ‘how to have a reasoned discourse’ or ‘how to think for yourself’. School teaches students, first and foremost, to accept what they are told without question. And I absolutely do not blame the teachers for that – in my underfunded high school, a set of frankly inspiring teachers were all that kept my school from chaos. It is the system which is broken – it sets aside child autonomy altogether and focus on arbitrary values and petty rules
.
However, I would point out that whilst this lack of power and autonomy will not do much damage when adults genuinely do have children’s best interests at heart, it does a great deal of harm when adults are irresponsible or abusive. It puts the minor in a position of extreme vulnerability, and enforces to them that nothing they do or say will make a difference. There is a whole gradient of abuse that happens before the line of calling social services, and I would say that it my experience, more children are trapped in emotionally or physically abusive households than is ever publicly recognised.
2. Besides the obvious Fox/CNN divide, I know next to nothing about the American media. What I was referring to was the (perhaps solely British) phenomenon of Rupert Murdoch and his ilk and their trashy tabloids. Headlines such as ‘old age pensioner brutally bludgeoned to death by juvenile delinquents’ are so common they would make you think that Britain had gone Clockwork Orange-esque and that there were gangs of children roaming the street, pillaging and burning. This is sensationalist garbage, but it leaks into more respectable reporting as well – the recent riots in London were covered with comments like ‘a generation out of control’ and ‘teenagers burn building to the ground’. It has gotten to the point that even an open minded person, who has a teenage child of their own (whom they love and respect) will condemn a teenager walking with their hood up at night – even if, like me, they are simply picking up groceries or something similarly un-terrifying. There is an ‘us’ versus ‘them’ mentality, which when combined with minor’s extreme lack of power, is very dangerous. No other minority group would ever be spoken about in this way without some serious objections being raised, but children are seemingly exempt from this privilege, even though adults will rush to inform us that we are the most protected in society.
3. My basic standpoint is that adults are privileged and that it is ridiculous to deny the existence of the privilege (I don’t think that’s your argument, but I was originally replying to the person above). I’m not necessarily saying that certain privileges should be give to children, I just find that pointing out the arbitrariness of the system helps to illustrate my point. How is the government judging capacity? Why one rule for one age and one for another? What science backs these hard-and-fast age criteria (I mean specifically – why does a sixteen year old deserve one right but not another)? Why is there no room for extraneous variables and factors in the judgment of a persons maturity? In my high school, there were eleven year olds that knew more about the political party system than most adults, and seventeen year olds that didn’t know who the prime minister was. Diversity is assumed with adults but forgotten with children, as if age nullifies any other factors involved. The idea that to hit an adult is assault but to hit a child is discipline is just one more example of the privilege and lack of logical analysis on the issue – especially when behavioural psychologists say that physical reprimanding does little to no good. For too many adults, hitting is an easy way to express their anger onto something which they regard their possession – I’m not saying all adults, just too many.
4. This is the point where I pull out my generation Z card and say that marriage probably means something very different to you than it does to me. To me, it is a legal contract which is designed to help in financial aspects of a relationship. So while I don’t really see the logic in two people who don’t have financial obligations like taxation getting married, I also don’t care very much. One third of marriages end in divorce anyway, so I don’t really regard it as a love-forever-and-ever type thing. But I respect that your opinion on marriage probably varies wildly from mine, and I will accept your basic premise – some privileges could not be applied to children without very unfortunate consequences unfolding as a result.
On your last point:
Of course I wasn’t being deliberately nasty or spiteful. Not to you – not even to the people of your country. The system of payment for healthcare is so remote to me, that I can only view it in its most abstract form. To me, it is the idea that I find appalling, and my snark was my expression of disgust for that idea. I don’t think I’ve ever even spoken to someone who believed that health care should primarily be private – that’s how distant the concept is to me. It is simply something which exists over the ocean which I have no experience of whatsoever – I take free health care very much for granted, so my tone whenever the subject comes up is one coloured by disbelief and mild horror, especially because the US is such a powerful country. I am sorry if I offended you though.
On the issue of people dying – it was the lack of routine medical care as a cause of fatality which I was referencing in my last comment, because I recently read about it in an article talking about the ‘occupy wallstreet’ campaign.
And finally, my age. Ironically, one of things I have learned from long and tiring experience is that people will judge me by my date of birth. Starting on the defensive is learned behaviour, because I so often have found myself scorned or outright dismissed for my age (one of the reasons I have lied on websites that required a date of birth since I was 13 and have only recently stopped). So I suppose you’re right in saying that it is because of my age – but it comes as a response to other people’s attitudes on my age, not a characteristic in and of itself. But I do understand and thank you for your open mindedness on that issue – I had already noticed it, which was why I was surprised when I misread your comment. As for the snottiness? They used to call it precociousness but it got less cute as time went on. I could grow out of it, I suppose, but knowing my older family members as I do…Well, I have my doubts.
The difference is that she made a politically-based comment on an entire country’s policies. You made a bigoted, ageist and very personal comment about her. Please remember that I do not allow any sort of marginalising comments on this blog; that includes not just the ‘big ones’ of sexism and racism, but more overlooked bigotries like ableism and ageism as well. Please try to frame your arguments without resorting to this.
I’d add to Raennem’s point about emergency procedures and add another – abortion. In this country at least, if a thirteen-year-old goes to the doctor and requests an abortion, not only does she not have to obtain her parents’ permission, the doctor is legally bound not to tell the parents. Hippocratic Oath and all that. Imagine a world where young girls had to notify their parents and obtain their permission to have an abortion. We’d have a lot more beaten, and probably a lot more dead, young girls.
This is a joke, right? 90% of these listed items well-socialized adults cannot “get away” with. Would you really want your child making very real decisions about the financial spending of your home? Rent vs bananas, or the newest Superman action figure? This is ridiculous.
What is ridiculous is that you, like the rather verbose commenter above you, appear to have completely missed the point.
What is the point? I don’t quite understand the purpose or benefit of this list. It can’t be an exercise in puttting yourself in someone else’s shoes because we have all been in children’s shoes. As a former child and current parent, I find the list self-indulgent.
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Great list, thank you.
I haven’t read the discussion, so this might have been mentioned, but I’m missing a point about incest and child sexual abuse.
Also, here’s another privilege list that you might like to link to: radicalbi.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/the-monosexual-privilege-checklist/
Comment edited by Anji due to the use of an ableist term. Seriously, this comment was one word, and it still managed to be bigoted fuckjobbery.
I am furious.
You know why?
Because the people commenting on this checklist are all in the same position of privilege. Most of you, while you once were children, are so far past stage it’s difficult for you to remember the frustration and oppression you experienced as a child. I, as a 14 year old, am still in the middle of the intolerance of adults towards children or minors. My parents are allowed to demand I pay them money if I quit soccer- even though, at the time, I was also in cross country, and my grades were suffering as a result of how busy I was- but I did not own the 200$ it would require to be able to quit, and was punished because of my grades. My parents are able to force us to eat foods we don’t like by threatening us with, say, taking my phone away. They control me, decide why is acceptable for me, and impose their views on me. This ageism is one of the reasons I prefer to stay at my moms, versus my dads, because while they are both, as standard parents, agesist, my father is significantly more so, demeaning my sexuality and needs among other things.
But the reason I feel most angry is YOUR BLATANT DENIAL OF THE FACT THAT IF OTHER CATEGORIES CAN BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND OPPRESSED, THEN SO CAN CHILDREN.
if people of color, women, genderqueer, and minorities can be discriminated against because of a description, then so can children/younger people.
I have more to say, but I’m afraid I have to go do my homework from a class I don’t want to take but am forced to by the many adults in my life.
Fuck the ageists and goodbye.
Jaime – I fully encourage you, when you have children, to give them all the rights you felt were so unjustly kept from you by your parents. Or better yet, I challenge you to do so.
It’s so easy for each of us to say what should or shouldn’t happen to other people’s children, but few of us want to hear what other people think should happen to ours. What you might call oppression or privilege I call raising my child in a way that I hope will produce the best results. We ALL parent in theory, which means that we hope we are doing the right thing. There are no guarantees. Stripping away all of those things that some think of as overbearing to children will not ensure success. Too much freedom is as dangerous as too little. And that’s another issue: successful childrearing is subjective for the parent as well as the child, and can change over time for each.
You can’t have it both ways, you can’t give people the responsibility of taking care of children without the power to impose their will. It would be impossible to raise a child or deal with children and steer clear of this entire list. As a parent, I openly admit to some of the listed items without guilt or shame. As a matter of fact, I would even go as far as to say that it was my job to do some of the the things on this list.
I have questioned (and still do) the purpose of the list itself. Even the choice of wording implies an immature judgment and lack of understanding, which makes it even more difficult to figure out the aim of its composition.
I have questioned (and still do) the purpose of the list itself. Even the choice of wording implies an immature judgment and lack of understanding, which makes it even more difficult to figure out the aim of its composition.
That’s interesting Lynn; I’m the author, I’m twenty-six years of age tomorrow and I’m the parent of a 6.5-year-old boy.
Congratulations and Happy Birthday.
You made a point of saying that the list was purposely worded from the viewpoint of the oppressed class. Why not take it a step further and give a list actually made by the oppressed class. Male privilege lists are made by women, white privilege lists are made by non-white people, heterosexual privilege lists are made by gay, lesbian or transgender people, etc. This is the only list I know of that is created by the oppressing class for the oppressed, and it shows. if you want an authentic list ask a 3, 6, 9, and 16 year-old what they think should be included rather than giving the kind of list you think they should make.. This sounds like more of what you want for your child than what children want for themselves.
This sounds like more of what you want for your child than what children want for themselves.
I absolutely don’t want a lot of these privileges for my son; my life would be considerably harder, and so would his (more dangerous too I’d bet) if he had them.
if you want an authentic list ask a 3, 6, 9, and 16 year-old what they think should be included rather than giving the kind of list you think they should make
I did in fact consult my son while the list was being written, and referred back to my own writings as a 13-15 year old teenager.
Interestingly, you seem to be making this point as an attempt to disparage/discredit the meaning behind the list, but I think it’s a great point. I have a lot of parent friends, and it would be a good idea to interview their children to find out what privileges they perceive the adults in their lives have over them.
I am not trying to disparage the list, but as the author, I would ask you the purpose of it because it is still lost on me. If, you “believe that children’s rights are important, and that feminists (. . .) should be invested in working for the rights of all oppressed groups – including children”, then it makes sense that the items on this list need to be changed. If, on the other hand, it is a list to simply serve as a reminder of the frustrations and humaness of children, that is another story.
I think the argument could be made (right or wrong) that a “Privilege” list could be made for almost every group from the viewpoint of someone outside that group. I would love to see the feedback from your friends’ children, in their own words.
I agree with you that we cannot be parents without breaking at least some of the rules. In some cases, failure to break the rule constitutes neglect.
But when I read this list, I didn’t read it as a list of things parents shouldn’t do. Rather, I read it as an enlightening exercise in what kids are feeling. As the parent of a 10month old, I found this list incredibly helpful in keeping my non-verbal son’s perspective in mind.
So yeah, if he manages to get hold of something dangerous or breakable, I still take it away – but I do so with empathy. I give him a hug and explain to him why I had to take it away. I let him be angry or frustrated, I don’t punish him, I just hold him, comfort him, and lead him towards more acceptable toys.
This list lets us see kids as human beings, with desires and needs of their own. It’s not an instruction manual, but rather an exercise in building empathy. Too much of parenting makes us feel like our children are enemies to be conquered. It’s nice to see a reminder that they are people, and that they feel just as frustrated as we do.
“But when I read this list, I didn’t read it as a list of things parents shouldn’t do. Rather, I read it as an enlightening exercise in what kids are feeling”.
While some of it may be what children are feeling, I also think some of it is adults projecting what they are feeling or what they think children should be feeling.
As the parent of 13 and 9 year-olds, my husband and I have the advantage of their ability to tell us what they are thinking. Not only have we allowed them the freedom to express themselves, they take that freedom quite seriously, so we are not at a loss as to their thoughts or feelings. However, we do not allow ourselves to be held hostage when making decisions about them or the family.
If the list helps you empathize with your children, that’s great, but it’s a little heavy-handed for me. As a matter of fact, some of the items make it difficult for me to take the list seriously.
So you are saying that because it is difficult for you to allow your children basic freedoms and rights, and that because it will be difficult for me as well, that I should not be allOwed these rights? Why? It seems because it would be too difficult for parents to do. It will be difficult to erase and change any kind of ism or prejudice, such as fat phobia and racism and sexism and cissexism(?), but that does not mean we should not. Therefore, we should not ignore the oppression of young people because it would be a more difficult way of life. We should acknowledge it and try to prevent it. I do realize that as children, we do tend to be a little more on the thoughtless side. That does not mean, however, that adults should have control over every aspect of our lives. I also accept that we/I do require some kind of guiding, helping. But that does not mean we should be entirely controlled and manipulated by our parents and the adults surrounding us. Yes- tell us we should maybe go to bed. Don’t force us to, because otherwise you will hit us or punish us in some other way. You would object if someone hit you for not doing what they wanted- in fact, it is so obviously abuse- until the victim is a disobedient child.
I also feel it us necessary to mention that children, via challenging authority repeatedly and insistently, can be diagnosed with a mental disorder, ood
“So you are saying that because it is difficult for you to allow your children basic freedoms and rights, and that because it will be difficult for me as well, that I should not be allOwed these rights?”
No. I am saying that while I DO allow my children basic freedoms and rights, they are not all the freedoms and rights that they want. It would not only be difficult for parents to give all the rights their children wanted, in some cases it would be irresponsible.
As far as telling my children they should maybe go to bed, um, no. It is bedtime. I cannot (and do not try) to force them to sleep, but they can no longer talk on the phone, watch television, or play on the computer. I ask them to read before bed, but this is as far as my “punishment” goes.
The assumption that the opposite of complete freedom is abuse does not take into account the range of parenting choices in between. One of my biggest problems with this list is results. With issues like sexism or racism a privilege list would include those things that needed to change, but that is not necessarily the case here. Let’s take a look at #2: If I need a caregiver, he or she will not be my peer. So here is my question: Who thinks this is a bad thing and that it should change? Another issue I have about the list is that some of these items are simply based on logic: again, see #2.
Look, I get it. I was once 14 and now have a 13-year-old. My understanding then was different than my understanding now (not better, just different). What has definitely changed is that I can no longer only think of myself (which is all I really had to think about at 14), and that changes things quite significantly.
I do try to understand and empathize with my children, but I realize that my choices will not always popular with them, and I am okay with that.
Sorry, not ood, but odd, oppositional defiant disorder.
I would post something more thorough and well thought out, but I just wanted to say to Jaime that the way her parents are treating her is wrong and I hope that either they stop it or she can get out of there sooner rather than later. The people on this blog don’t seem to actually give a shit about or pay attention to what she said (Jaime: sorry I am talking about you in the third person it’s just that you said nothing wrong and I want to address the ignorance displayed by those responding to you). It sounds like she is trying her hardest and her parents are being harsh and will not accept that she can only manage so much, and I don’t know how anyone can defend her father demeaning her sexuality, whether that’s taking the form of shaming or punishing her for masturbating (or spying on her to prevent it), or telling her that being LGBTQ is unacceptable, or calling her a slut, or saying she can’t date until she’s an adult, or trying to prevent her from accessing contraception, condoms or abortion, or whatever else. It is her body.
I apologize for any misuse of -ist terms. As if yet, I am still learning awareness for the general -ists that I have grown up with.
Would -ists be, well, -ist?
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No matter how many times I read this list, it never makes any more sense.
How the hell is this considered necessary children’s rights?
The laws and practices we have in place are there so the children don’t hurt themselves or others. I would go into a long, detailed dissertation on what is wrong with the items on this list, but I would get nowhere because you “social justice” people are to short-sighted to see past your eyelashes. I’ll leave you with this. As a young man (15) I have never felt oppressed beyond the natural feelings someone my age has. I get irritated when certain people do certain things (I.E. take something I own) but I know and understand that these things are in place for my own personal and social growth. If you parents hadn’t disciplined you, or “oppressed” you as you seem to feel, then where would you be? Where would society be? In a world where there are no limits, guidelines, or rules, everything goes, and nobody gets anywhere. There’s a reason we set up and elect governments. We understand that in a world where we are not restricted on a reasonable level, we will go to far.
If we, today, completely dissolved all world government, the first thing that would happen would be violence and destruction. Parents are the government to a child. And rightly so, because they are the first and last word. If you feel like my ideas are wrong, and you want to continue with your ‘Childerens Crusade”, be my guest. But please, do it in seclusion. Nobody else wants to deal with your undisciplined kids.
great list! But in my world it is considered neglectful if one child is being cared for by another child (a peer). Because they are both children and both deserve to be cared for by loving, respectful adults. Just sayin’. (NAEYC member)